Logging from 13-Dec-00 15:53:24

00:50:21 Craig Polhemus Welcome, faculty at Academic Partner schools.
00:50:48 Craig Polhemus This is the first real-time discussion for Academic Partners schools.
00:51:12 Craig Polhemus Steve Albrecht and Bob Sack will be participating in this discussion.
00:51:47 Craig Polhemus They are the authors of the new IMA/AICPA/Big 5/AAA monograph, "Accounting Education: Charting the Course through a Perilous Future".
00:51:58 Craig Polhemus This is YOUR discussion. So let the games begin!
00:51:59 Steve Albrecht Welcome everyone. This is Steve Albrecht writing. I would love to answer questions, or if you don't have any, I'd love to ask you some.
00:52:27 Bob Sack And we are anxious to learn about the experiences the partner schools have had
00:52:41 Bob Cluskey Hi Steve
00:53:01 Steve Albrecht One of the questions I have for you is whether or not your enrollments are decreasing, and if so, what you attribute those declines to. Also, what are you doing about it. Hi Bob.
00:53:18 Bob Cluskey Our experience at TSU AN HBCU has not been one of declining enrollments
00:53:45 Bob Cluskey Is this really an issue across the spectrum?
00:54:55 Bill Cummings We have not experienced declines rather moderate increases in the past few years.
00:55:13 Steve Albrecht One of the things that has bothered me the most is that as I have spoken about the monograph and the problems around the country, there seems to be a lot more consensus that we have significant problems and need to do something among practitioners than among academics. Moving academics is like moving mountains. Maybe academics don't really believe there is a problem.
00:55:30 Bob Sack Most people have said yes - Maryland is down 50% as is Virginia
00:55:37 Bob Cluskey I believe it is a problem & it appears the issues to be two: 1 educating HS counselors as to what accounting careers consist of & 2 our curriculum needs to address being current.
00:56:26 Steve Albrecht I wish the problem were simply a matter of firms needing to increase their starting salaries, but while that would help, I think our problems are much more substantive than that.
00:56:57 Tracey Sutherland I've had some conversations with faculty at several schools like Bob's -- that don't have declining enrollments -- but are struggling with how to change a pretty traditional curriculum while local recruiters seem to be saying everything is okay as it is.
00:57:43 Bob Cluskey Perhaps what we need to do is identify which schools have not had declining enrollments & why. Identify which schools have declining enrollments & find the differences.
00:57:50 Bill Cummings The local recruiters seem to be most concerned about filling their quotas especially in an era of 150-hours.
00:58:18 Bob Sack The problem is multi-faceted. We need to work on our problems and push the rest of the profession to work on an overall approach
00:58:20 Steve Albrecht Well local recruiters might not think there is a problem but I recently spoke at the AICPA council meeting and I have received requests to speak to educators by at least 10 state CPA society presidents. I think it is a matter of preoccupation with filling quotas.
00:59:06 Steve Kachelmeier Actually, salaries scream out as the number 1 problem in most of the monograph's surveys. On p. 25, for instance 58% of the practitioners cite low salaries as the first or second most important problem. Accounting professors get the LEAST blame (only 6% -- by far the lowest of the seven reasons listed).
00:59:30 Bill Cummings Accounting is going thru a downsizing just as agriculture did in the last 100 years and industry is doing now. It does not mean however that the need for accountants will disappear.
01:00:34 Steve Albrecht Steve and Bill, you are right. There is downsizing and salaries are the number one problem. But, in Steve Covey's words, we each have our "circle of influence" and our "circle of concern." I am concerned about all the problem--both professional and educational--but I can do most about the educational problems.
01:00:42 Steve Kachelmeier Quite ironically, the demand for accountants at our shop has never been greater. Firms are frustrated at not getting enough. It's only the salaries that are lagging.
01:01:10 Steve Albrecht Is that a function of the great economy or an increase in the need for accountants?
01:01:16 Bob Cluskey Steve: I think the AICPA is doing right by addressing the accounting career issue in high schools; but schools need some guidance to break away from the traditional curriculum. For example what is the new CPA Exam going to consist of content wise.
01:01:30 Bob Sack Back to the question of who has experience declines and who has not - good idea. The AICPA promised anonymity to the schools who participate in the S/D study. But we ought to be able to survey on our own and find out the characteristics of the schools who have not had declines.
01:02:06 Bill Cummings We may have over capacity for training accountants which needs to be pared down. And, the content of the CPA exam does drive our curricula to a significant degree.
01:02:19 Steve Albrecht Steve, if your demand is up, what are you doing right that others aren't? Most schools are having the opposite problem.
01:02:51 Bob Sack I have heard that the AICPA is on the edge of deciding to make the exam more/less judgmental - we ought to find a way to push for the judgemental move.
01:04:03 Craig Polhemus I hate to interrupt, but I'd like to remind you that, should time run short today, a non-real-time threaded discussion group on this topic is also available at http://AAAhq.org:8888/webx
01:04:22 Steve Kachelmeier We face the same problem of students being attracted to other opportunities. Here, in some ironic sense, the good economy is attracting students away from accounting. We can easily place our accounting graduates, but they do not get the MBA or systems salaries.
01:04:28 Bill Cummings Having a high quality program, well known in our region helps in keeping up enrollment in our program. We also are in a rapidly growing area economically helps too.
01:04:54 Bob Cluskey Craig will the survey for the Academic Partners for this this year address this issue?
01:05:05 Steve Albrecht I honestly believe that schools that are having success in attracting students have to find a niche market or something they can do better than others. Take BYU for example. 90% of our students have served two-year missions. When they come home they want a quick education, a quick marriage and a good degree. Our 5-year program meets that need. Our students are already older than others.
01:05:30 Bob Sack The capacity problem is real (at some schools) Virginia is working to develop exec ed courses to utilize their people. And is selling the courses to the big 5 firms!
01:05:40 Steve Albrecht a quick marriage and a good degree. Our five-year program works well for them and so there is high demand.
01:06:24 Steve Albrecht Steve...You didn't answer me before. What is your school doing so well that demand "has never been higher?"
01:06:57 Craig Polhemus Tracey, can you please respond on whether the 2001 Benchmarking program will address the issue asked about above?
01:07:41 Steve Kachelmeier I tried to answer. I suspect the demand for accountants is still great everywhere -- it's not just us. But other opportunities are even more lucrative, so we have to compete
01:08:38 Steve Albrecht Steve and others...are your students going into traditional accounting jobs (e.g. CPA firms) or are they taking new opportunities?
01:08:58 Randy Swad I believe we are being affected by two temporary phenomena that a re going to go away soon: 1) a stock market that has increased by 20 to 30% per year and 2) the internet craze that has attracted many people hoping to get rich quick.
01:09:00 Tracey Sutherland I'd be glad to answer a question about how the benchmarking project will address some of these issues -- Bob, you may have to let me know specifically what you had in mind. The survey will ask questions both about enrollments, curriculum change, and concerns that program faculty have about their programs.
01:10:09 Bob Sack Steve, I think you are right. Remember that Bob Elliott challenged us by saying that we have a smaller share of the market, of the massive number of people they hire. But that means too that we are not getting the best people anymore.
01:10:14 Steve Kachelmeier Bottom line is that the economy is good, and in a good economy, accounting is no longer king. The Big Five need to step up to the plate if they want to attract the best and brightest. Many of the quotes in the monograph bear this out.
01:11:05 Steve Albrecht Unless someone objects, I'd like to change the discussion dialogue. What do you think represents the ideal curriculum today or what are we doing too much/too little of?
01:12:23 Craig Polhemus Another interruption -- if YOU would like to suggest or lead an on-line discussion on some topic of interest, please let me or Tracey know by email at AAAhq@packet.net
01:12:37 Paul Polinski We are having a huge debate about that at LSU. Some of our faculty think that pedagogy needs changing; others think our classes should be targeted towards certain entry-level positions (e.g., systems consultant/auditor, financial analyst)
01:12:43 Bob Cluskey Our departments philosophy is that we have two tracks: CPA & General.
01:13:28 Bob Cluskey The CPA is not Public accounting but a benchmark for a career in accounting. A general track is an accounting major doing business.
01:14:13 Steve Kachelmeier Let me offer an example on Steve A.'s curriculum question. Page 63 of the monograph suggests eliminating advanced financial accounting. Merger volume is up from $100 billion in 1990 to $1.4 trillion in 1999, so does that suggestion seem responsive to the changing economy? I think not.
01:14:13 Tracey Sutherland Paul -- what kind of pedagogy is being discussed as needing changing at LSU?
01:14:38 Bob Cluskey In either case we must teach the technical skills as best we can define them. The students take accounting jobs at all levels so the tech skills of acctg is a shotgun blast.
01:14:53 Randy Swad Bob, are your tracks part of a 150 hour program?
01:15:21 Steve Albrecht Certainly topics like mergers and acquisitions need discussion. However, I would suggest a case format, teaching them how to research, not memorize, the answers.
01:15:32 Bob Sack Maryland has been thinking about 3 tracks - help in the MBA program, help in BS /finance and a smaller professional program.
01:15:35 Paul Polinski Some faculty believe that we emphasize the rules-based memorization and learning too heavily, and don't try to orient the classes to foster broader understanding of accountancy and building general business skills.
01:16:32 Steve Albrecht Concerning tracks and programs, at BYU, we have a strong minor, an undergraduate degree, and a large 5-year program. But, we do not offer a concentration in the MBA program.
01:17:15 Steve Albrecht Are any of you combining your accounting programs with information systems, finance or other areas?
01:17:29 Steve Kachelmeier On the case method, I absolutely agree with Steve A. My adv. acc. course uses them extensively. And I suspect I am not alone. On balance, I think accounting pedagogy has changed far more dramatically over the past ten years than the monograph acknowledges.
01:17:47 Michael N. But if we foster a broader understanding of accounting, who will want to hire accounting graduates with virtually no technical skills?
01:17:52 Bob Sack How about the law school model, where students learn concepts and research skills in school and then prep for the bar exam off line?
01:18:55 Bob Sack Michael - we heard that conflict loud and clear in our discussion groups. We do need a clearer message from the profession.
01:19:02 Steve Albrecht Steve...you are not alone in criticizing the monograph for understating the changes that have occurred. However, we wrote what the empirical evidence--interviews, surveys, focus groups told us.
01:19:33 Paul Polinski The logic behind the "broader understanding" view, as I interpret it, is that accountants are no longer bookkeepers, they are users, and understanding the role of accountancy and concepts such as financial statement articulation and financial statement number use prepares them better as users of information, not preparers.
01:19:44 Randy Swad What is happening to the 150 hour model? Are schools moving back to the traditional four-year programs?
01:20:32 Bob Cluskey Randy our tracks are undergraduate; the MAcc is 150 program; however since the Big 5 are requiring 150 to hire; most are getting 150 undergraduate hours; graduating; getting the job; then take the exam.
01:20:36 Paul Polinski students to be users and designers, not preparers, which is consistent with job requirements today.
01:20:42 Steve Albrecht Randy...I don't think the 150 hr. model is going away. I'm on the AICPA Council and while 150 hours is a discussion topic, the sentiment to abandon it isn't too strong.
01:20:54 Bill Cummings We could never move totally away from the 4 yr model but we have the 5th for those wanting to be CPAs
01:21:45 Craig Polhemus Bob, I have to say I enjoyed the law school model. After graduating, I spent less than 2 months learning the law of my state (New York) by reading the bar review materials (skipping the review course itself) -- so the analytical skills I acquired in law school must have proved readily applicable in a specific jurisdiction with its unique requirements
01:22:34 Bill Cummings Yes, the law school model might point to a 6th and 7th year for accts???
01:22:50 Bob Cluskey We try to encourage everyone to take the CPA Exam (after taking a review course) so we can not teach the Exam.
01:23:08 Steve Albrecht I think the evidence in the monograph is pretty strong that some kind of graduate education is desired. I think eliminating the 150 hour requirement would be "dummying down" the CPA credential.
01:24:23 Bob Sack Its not just time - our MBA/JDs say that the best advantage in the program is the difference in JD education -"what should be' as opposed the MBA education -"what is"
01:24:38 Steve Kachelmeier I have read every sentence of the monograph, and I did not see a single table or survey indicating that academe has ignored the call for educational reform made ten years ago in the Big-8 White Paper. Yet is the monograph's assertion. My frustration is in separating accounting education from the economy as causal factors for the shifts we are observing.
01:25:01 Steve Albrecht I would sure like to know what types of programs are most successful at your schools. Are they 5-year, undergraduate or post-bachelors, 2-year degree programs.
01:25:35 Steve Albrecht Steve and others...The allegations were very strong that changes have occurred but they haven't been pervasive or substantive enough. Read the tables on the kinds of changes schools have made.
01:26:12 Steve Albrecht When only 2/3 of all schools even use technology of any kind, have the changes been substantive enough?
01:27:00 Bill Cummings How do we rapidly change a discipline? It's like trying to steer an ocean liner on a dime.
01:27:45 Bob Sack Yes Bill, that's right. Unfortunately, our practice people have to act like a chris craft.
01:27:52 Bill Cummings I'm not sure the profession really knows which direction they want us to go. The target seems to change every few years.
01:27:59 Steve Kachelmeier Quote from p. 4 "Some accounting programs, schools, and faculty have made significant and meaningful changes." To me, this implies that most have not. I have to disagree with that. Virtually every professor I discuss these issues with has made some significant and meaningful changes.
01:28:09 Steve Albrecht Bill...if you listen to focus group participants and others, they believe major changes have been made at a few schools, some changes at more, and none at too many.
01:28:59 Bill Cummings Yes, the schools which had massive infusions of money from the AECC did change but there isn't enough funding to change every program that way.
01:29:38 Steve Albrecht Steve and others....Unfortunately, I think educators believe they have made changes but the business world doesn't think those changes are fast or significant enough. The incentives aren't there at most schools.
01:30:14 Bob Sack Tracey - there is a followup for you. What has the enrollment experience been at the AAEC schools?
01:30:49 Tracey Sutherland Bob -- that's certainly something that we could look into.
01:31:06 Bill Cummings That's true. The growing research imperative at many schools overwhelms change efforts. There is no payoff for younger faculty particularly. Ironically they are the most receptive to new ideas in many cases.
01:31:27 Steve Albrecht I really think what happens is that lots of schools have some change but over time those changes erode and the professor and school goes back to what is easiest--lecture and regurgitation.
01:31:57 Steve Kachelmeier Regarding what the business world thinks, again I have to turn to p. 25. In that table, 5.7% of the business practitioners blame professors. By contrast, 57.7% blame salaries that are not competitive with other disciplines, such as systems.
01:31:58 Randy Swad I think there is too much emphasis on change for the sake of change. We need to be more critical of the suggestions for change. For example, most of the proposals call for less specialization and less technical training. But the business world continues to be more specialized and more technical.
01:32:24 Bill Cummings In many cases that's what the students want too. It's what they get in most other courses and they can be passive observers rather than participants.
01:32:53 Bob Sack Focusing on the research agendas - It seems to me that we need some institutional changes to encourage our journals to move toward a larger understanding of accounting.
01:33:32 zzockr Bill - not only are new faculty most receptive to change but over challenged in the research and service area - they also seem to hit a brick wall with many senior faculty when they want to "try new fangled teaching ideas" that don't fit the traditional lecture model.
01:34:43 Steve Albrecht For your information, we just drafted a letter that will go out over AAA, AICPA, IMA, and Big 5 signatures to young professors encouraging them to be instigators of change at their schools.
01:34:56 Bill Cummings Exactly right, so we tend to shut down those who might be the most likely to innovate because their future is controlled by senior faculty who have no real incentive to change.
01:35:25 zzockr So how do we fix that?
01:35:33 Bill Cummings Steve, you are asking those younger faculty to take an enormous risk with their future.
01:35:54 Randy Swad Part of my message was cut off. My point was that the business world is becoming more specialized and more technical while the proposals call for less specialization and less technical training.
01:36:21 Bob Sack Here is a hypothesis to be tested - Fiance and marketing find it easier to change their course content to respond to changes in practice because they aren't tied to a system of re regulation system/exam to gulation and an exam
01:36:36 Steve Albrecht Randy...but high specialization doesn't have much transferrable value and may be learned more efficiently on the job.
01:37:24 Bill Cummings So is the content of the CPA exam at the heart of the problem?
01:37:38 Steve Albrecht Bill: Shouldn't we be willing to take risks to make things better?
01:38:12 Bob Sack Well, its certainly a large part. Some professors ay they don't teach to the exam, but the texts do.
01:39:02 Bob Sack Other professors have said that their schools is rated by the stat regents, based in part on the CPA exam results. That would send a powerful message
01:39:04 Bill Cummings Yes, but the risks have to at least promise a reasonable payoff. We've made it quite clear to most new faculty that the only thing which really matters is refereed pubs.
01:39:18 Michael N. The profession is calling for change (specifically the Big 5) but when you change teaching methods from spoonfeeding lectures to students a more demanding learning style, then younger teachers run the risk labeled as "bad" or lazy teachers.
01:39:31 Steve Albrecht I want to clarify something asked earlier. We tried really hard in the study to determine how much schools have changed? If you read the monograph carefully, you will see a list of classes added and dropped for example. It's hard to get good information.
01:39:38 Paul Polinski has joined the chat.
01:40:01 Randy Swad What is wrong with preparing our students for the CPA exam? That is the approach in medical school? I think the medical profession would be a good model for us.
01:40:41 Bill Cummings In most medical schools, the profs are also practitioners. What does that say for us?
01:40:54 Steve Albrecht Nothing is wrong with preparing students for the CPA exam if it represented what our graduates do. Unfortunately, only 10% of accountants do audit, which is what certification allows accountants to do.
01:41:03 Ronald Reed I agree with Bob on the textbooks. I think faculty are driven by what is in textbooks and it becomes too difficult to create relevant material.
01:41:10 zzockr I think blaming the textbooks is a cop out. Even a very technical and procedural text is very amenable to a critical analysis perspective for teaching technical material. Isn't that what firms really want (I'm unsure about this) accountants that understand the discipline, can think about accounting in a refined way but can also analyze the information accounting provides and talk intelligently about it?
01:41:33 Paul Polinski The CPA exam is too specific and is oriented too much toward only one corner of the profession. Internal auditors, consultants, and corporate accountants have much less need for CPA-relevant knowledge in their job duties.
01:42:04 Steve Kachelmeier The problem with the CPA Exam is that its questions can be answered by any staff accountant with a CD-Rom or web access to the authoritative literature. I certainly agree with the monograph's authors that we should not teach exclusively to such a narrow memorization-oriented exam. And I submit (hope?) that most do not do so. I did not see any evidence in the monograph to the contrary.
01:42:47 Bill Cummings Maybe we should encourage only those who want audit or tax careers to even think about the CPA exam.
01:43:28 Bob Sack A follow up on the Med School/Law School model; remember that the Big8 white paper urged us to broaden our scope, but also said that they couldn't give us access to clinical material because of confidentiality provision.
01:44:06 Steve Albrecht My major concern with the way we teach is that the world has changed (even the CPA brand is worth less) and, for the most part, we haven't changed. These are different times with different student and professional needs.
01:44:34 Bill Cummings But Med and Law professions have confidentiality issues too and they find a way to bring that material into their classes.
01:44:40 Steve Kachelmeier Sorry -- I had a sentence cut off there. The question I was going to ask was whether there was any evidence in the monograph that most teach exclusively to the CPA Exam. I didn't see any such evidence.
01:44:53 Tracey Sutherland I don't want to interrupt a good conversation, but we're scheduled to end this forum in about 10 minutes.
01:45:12 Steve Albrecht There is no evidence in the monograph that most people teach only to the CPA exam.
01:45:45 Craig Polhemus Bill, All I recall from law school is published appellate cases and hypotheticals, nothing involving confidential material.
01:45:46 Bob Sack You bet - and we can too, especially if we can find commercial company's to partner with.
01:46:01 Steve Albrecht I am very bullish on the future of accounting education if schools will identify what they do better than others and what their students need. But there is no longer room for all of us to do the same.
01:46:55 Bill Cummings How do you identify what you do best other than thru the marketplace for graduates?
01:46:59 Bob Sack Craig - and law schools can do that because they ask the students to assume the facts and think about the principles.
01:47:42 Steve Albrecht Bill....I know what we do best--a 5-year program for older-than-average students who are highly motivated. It is a very efficient way for them to get masters degrees in business. My goal now is to get them called MBAs.
01:47:58 Steve Kachelmeier That's the point. These discussions are healthy, and I probably agree with most of the authors' pedagogical philosophies. But the monograph reads like an indictment (even an analogy to the Titanic), and I'm not sure that's justified.
01:48:30 Randy Swad I second that.
01:49:02 Steve Albrecht Steve....maybe we used wording that reads like an indictment, but we only represented the data as we found them. We did want people to pay attention and to encourage discussion. If it does that, the monograph has been successful.
01:49:30 Bob Sack This too interesting an exchange to close on - but I'd say this. For many schools the market is speaking, and students are voting with their feet.
01:49:51 zzockr Steve K. I agree whole heartedly with you last comment. Deans in our area are using the monograph as a justification to divert accounting positions to other areas, in spite of the fact that true vacancies exist in the accounting area
01:50:12 Randy Swad Yes, but only until the stock market and the internet flame out.
01:50:39 Steve Albrecht I want to thank each of you for participating. If we have hurt your recruiting and standing in the business school, we apologize. If you have demand, I don't think you will lose resources.
01:51:05 Bob Sack I wonder if we can get them back on the farm after they have seen Paree
01:52:07 Steve Albrecht I've got to run to another meeting. But, let's do this again some time. I think we only have scratch the surface on the difficult issues.
01:52:17 Bob Sack Steve is right - we have to find way to build or maintain demand
01:53:48 Tracey Sutherland As Craig noted, there is the ongoing discussion forum at this site to continue the conversation. Many thanks to Steve and Bob and all of you for being part of this pilot forum for Academic Partners. You're welcome to stay on as long as you like. Happy holidays!
01:54:15 Steve Albrecht Thanks everyone. I'm gone.
01:54:46 Bob Sack Happy holidays to all. It would be great to find a way to continue the dialog.
01:58:55 Tracey Sutherland There seem to be some new arrivals, but our speakers, Bob Sack and Steve Albrecht, have just signed off from the 2:00 EST session. An archive of the discussion will be accessible from the Discussion Forum web page by Friday of this week.
02:02:53 Richard Baker Hi, this is Richard Baker. My screen does not show any messages. Is the discussion ongoing?
02:03:24 Jim The discussion was 2-3pm EST
02:03:52 Richard Baker Ah, O.K., I am sorry to have missed it. I had a personnel committee meeting that just ended.
02:04:09 Jim You can see an archive of the discussion by scrolling down and clicking "Recent Chat Transcript"
02:04:46 Richard Baker Hi Tracey, I will look it through. I am really pleased that the AAA set up this forum format. I hope we can use it again in the future for other important items.
02:05:45 Tracey Thanks Dick -- we'll do more if people found it worthwhile.
02:05:54 Richard Baker O.K., bye for now.
02:08:14 Lanny Chasteen Elvis has left the "building."